Let’s Talk New Mexico 4/7 8am: In mid-March Governor Michelle Lujan Grisham announced a special legislative session for early April with two main goals: to offer financial relief to New Mexicans in the face of the highest inflation we’ve experienced in decades, and to revisit the vetoed junior appropriations bill that passed the regular session unanimously to give about $50 million to legislators to allocate to smaller project within their districts. Among the governor’s reasons for the veto was a lack of transparency around which particular legislators asked for money for which projects. While economic ethics are at the forefront of the special session, allegations of inappropriate behavior have swirled in the background.
On the next Let’s Talk New Mexico, we’ll dig into the junior appropriations bill, how to fix it for the sake of transparency, and the ethical considerations when it comes to spending the peoples’ money. We’ll also talk over culture in the legislature and the multiple allegations of untoward behavior by lawmakers like thwarting election opponents (within the rules) and sexual harassment allegations.
Share your ideas about state spending, transparency, and how to ensure lawmakers behave ethically by emailing LetsTalk@kunm.org, tweet #letstalkNM or call in live during the show to (505) 277-5866.
GUESTS:
- Marjorie Childress, New Mexico In Depth
- Dede Feldman, author, consultant, and former state senator
- Pamelya Herndon, Democratic Representative - Albuquerque
- Shannon Kunkel, New Mexico Foundation for Open Government
- Dan McKay, Albuquerque Journal
TRANSCRIPT
Kaveh Mowahed: Good morning. This is Let's Talk New Mexico. I'm your host Kaveh Mowahed. Last month, Governor Michelle Lujan Grisham announced a special legislative session for early April with two main goals: to offer financial relief to New Mexicans in the face of the highest inflation we've experienced in decades, and to revisit the vetoed Junior appropriations bill that passed the regular session unanimously to give about $50 million to legislators to allocate to smaller projects within their districts. Among the governor's reasons for the veto was a lack of transparency around which legislators asked for money for which projects while economic ethics are at the forefront of this special session. Allegations of inappropriate behavior by legislators have swirled in the background. Today, we'll dig into the junior appropriations bill, how to fix it for the sake of transparency and the ethical considerations when it comes to spending the people's money. We'll also talk about the culture in the legislature and the multiple allegations of untoward behavior by lawmakers like thwarting election opponents and even sexual harassment allegations. We want to hear from you also. Share your ideas about state spending, transparency, and how to ensure lawmakers behave ethically by emailing us at LetsTalk@kunm.org. Or call in live at 505-277-5866. Okay, let's get started. My first guest this morning is Dan McKay, a reporter with The Albuquerque journal who spends a large amount of time covering state government. Thanks for joining us this morning, Dan.
Dan McKay: Good morning. Thank you for having me on.
Kaveh Mowahed: Absolutely. We're happy to hear from you. We have a lot of we have a lot to talk about today. But we can start with what the governor's office says is the primary reason for calling legislators back to work. And that's to create some kind of economic relief for New Mexicans in the face of inflation. That's as high as we've seen in quite some time. How did that work out? Can you share any details?
Dan McKay: Yeah, the legislators and the governor reached agreement before the session essentially to propose $500 tax rebates for New Mexicans. For New Mexico residents. Essentially, if you are a tax filer, you would get $500. If you're an individual, you'd get $1,000, if you're a couple, or filing as a head of household, and the money would be split up. So that half of it goes out before the end of June. And the other half would go out in August. So, you'd be looking at… if you're an individual, you'd be looking at $250 in the spring or early summer and then $250 in the fall or late summer. There's also a pot of money for people who do not file taxes, they would get the same amount. But it would be offered on a first come first served basis and people would have to file applications. That pot of money is primarily intended at, say senior citizens or people with incomes so low they don't file taxes each year.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay, I'm wondering if you know whether that tax rebate will be counted as taxable income; are we going to get dinged for it at the end of the year?
Dan McKay: No, I don't believe so. Is there was some talk about that issue, but it's my understanding that it is not taxable income.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay. Now, have you heard any talk about ethical concerns when it comes to the governor pushing so hard to get checks out to people in an election year? Or is that just being cynical?
Dan McKay: Yes, so some Republicans certainly raised that issue. Republicans are in the minority in both chambers. And they're on the ballot too. But there's been kind of an interesting policy shift. You know, the Democratic legislators have been a little more reluctant to do tax rebate checks like this in the past while Republicans have pushed for it. And then the dynamic shifted a little bit during this session where some Republicans oppose the rebates and said there ought to be sort of some broader changes, permanent changes to the tax code. The… in some Republicans, some opponents did raise the issue of you know, hey, these checks would be going out, you know, ahead of the general election campaign or during the general election campaign. You know, is there a political motivation to this Um, the Democratic supporters essentially disputed that they said, You know that, basically, the goal is to get the money out the door as quickly as they can now, but because these, you know, high gas prices and unflushed inflation of prices is not something that's going away that it made sense to also do a second round of checks to split them up. There are also accounting reasons to do this. The state's fiscal year begins July 1. So, it helps to split the money between two fiscal years before and after July 1, for sort of complicated reasons that have to do with like operating reserves and in transfers among funds and that kind of thing. So, yes, there have been there certainly have been some accusations of politics, you know, flying boat, both directions.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay, well, let's talk a little bit about the other purpose for this special session, the junior appropriations bill; it was vetoed by Governor Michelle Lujan Grisham about a month ago. But it was also on the docket this session. What was in that original spending package? Can you tell us about some of those specific projects?
Dan McKay: Yeah, it is. The Junior, it's called the junior spending bill, because it's kind of like the budget, you know, the main budget this year is somewhere around eight and a half billion. And occasionally, the state will have a supplemental spending bill, which in this case amounted to 50 million. And legislators will each have an allocation, there's a certain amount that each house member gets a certain amount that each Senate member gets. And then they can allocate the money as they see fit. And this is something that's usually only available during times of budget surplus, or, you know, when they have plenty of money to spend. Highlighting specific projects is difficult because it ends up being just such a grab bag of 112 different legislators picking things largely in their own districts to support but there have been, there was money allocated for say, a police officer at a high school in Aztec where there was a shooting a few years ago. There is money for Speech and Debate or mock trial programs. I believe there's money for water data projects, medical equipment for hospitals, you know, all kinds of things that legislators believe are, say necessary in their districts, but overlooked by the broader budget. So, it ends up being just sort of this, you know, tremendous list of projects.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay. And the governor had a couple of objections with themes that we're going to explore more through the hour, but maybe you can tell us more specifically why she said she didn't sign off on that original Junior bill.
Dan McKay: Yeah, so as you might imagine, this is and you touched on this in your introduction but, you know, this is an unusual way to do budgeting to let legislators essentially pick, you know, have the freedom to pick things without it going through sort of the normal process of repeated budget hearings. You know, that for the main budget, it's built with their repeated hearings throughout the year on different agencies, you know, what they need what they want. So, the governor essentially contends, you know, this, this junior spending bill is circumvented is outside the main budgeting process. A department or project might get money it didn't request. A project, or a program might get money, it can't spend if say, you know, let's say it's going to cost a million dollars to redo a park in your neighborhood, but the allocation is only for 200,000 or something like that. So, it's not enough money to complete the project, so the money is kind of tied up. So that was her argument. She also raised transparency concerns. There are not well, at least in the previous versions of this spending bill, the allocations from each individual legislator is not is not published. So, you can see that a, you know, a community college in Clovis is going to get a certain amount of money, but you don't necessarily know which legislator allocated that money to the college. So, she also raised transparency concerns about this. The legislators, of course, I should add, you know, they push back on the idea that these projects are not properly vetted. You know, their argument is that essentially, they're the ones closest to the ground, so to speak in their districts and have a good understanding of what is necessary.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay, I think here's a great time for me to ask a question of our listeners. Should lawmakers be able to give each other authority to spend money with you know, arguably little oversight? Call 505-277-5866 or tweet to us with the #LetsTalkNM. This is a good time to bring in our next guest Democratic Representative Pamelya Herndon from Albuquerque. I'll mention that representative Herndon is also a veteran KUNM volunteer on the Women's Focus show that airs Saturday afternoons. Thanks for coming in on this show to talk about good government this morning.
Pamelya Herndon: Kaveh, it's great to be here.
Kaveh Mowahed: I'm wondering if you thought the governor's concerns about the original Jr. Bill were significant enough to warrant a veto?
Pamelya Herndon: Well, let me just say, I don't know how the governor was thinking about making the veto. But I will tell you that my colleagues and I in the legislature thought very carefully about how we were spending our junior money. And we even talked to make sure that perhaps that we were utilizing our money in collaboration to make sure that if there was a project, for example, that needed additional funding, that we were working together to make it reached the top of the funding level that it needed.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay. I’ll also mention, I believe each representative was allotted $360,000, something like that to spend in their districts. And then each senator was given a $600,000 check, more or less something like that. What sorts of projects did you identify for your district?
Pamelya Herndon: You know, I'm happy to share the projects that I identified that were worthy of the junior money that I received for distribution. And I would say that every single member of my legislative colleagues also thought very hard about how they were going to spend this money. So let me tell you about some. So first of all, one of the things that we looked at in the state of New Mexico, or that I looked at is that we have a shortage of skilled workers. And how can we get more and more these skilled workers, whether they're electricians, contractors, machinists. And so, I said, we need to look to women, because women make up more than 51% of the population of the state. So, I gave money to CNM professional Trades Program, to reach out to women to help develop women in the trades. And so, for the first time in history, we had a women's in the trades conference to get more women in the trades as a result of money that I am also given to CNM. You know, I looked at the way in which we were looking at health sciences and making sure that there was diversity, equity and inclusion into that program. So, I gave money to that program, so that UNM could reach out and make sure that it was inclusive. I also looked at the fact that there are not enough attorneys that are available to help individuals who are low and moderate income right now. We have one organization that's focused in that area. And so, I created another aspect and avenue to make sure that low income individuals had access to justice.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay, this is Let's Talk New Mexico on 89.9 KUNM. I'm Kaveh Mowahed. We're taking your calls about the junior spending bill and economic relief payments working through the legislature. Well, they're worked through the legislature at this point, it has been adjourned. Give us a call 505-277-5866. We'll be right back.
(INTERMISSION)
Kaveh Mowahed: Welcome back to Let's Talk New Mexico. I'm Kaveh Mowahed, we're talking to Dan McKay from The Albuquerque Journal and Democratic Representative Pamelya Herndon. Pamelya, the solution to get those junior bill funds out into circulation was sort of a compromise between the legislature and the governor, that revised junior bill that is, can you tell us about how that worked?
Pamelya Herndon: Well, what we did is we looked at the programs that we had, and we simply had a conversation with the governor's office about the importance of making sure that individuals have this money that had been allocated for them. Lots and lots of people in the community. Also, were concerned about projects and programs that were going to be the beneficiaries of this funding. And so, they too, were calling. So, I'm glad that we had this conversation, because communication is always the key to success.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay. And finally, I guess, can you help us understand the process among legislators for vetting the projects as they're proposed for inclusion in the bill?
Pamelya Herndon: What happens is many people within the community will write to all of their legislators, and they will say, you know, we have this project that we would like to have funded, that's not necessarily going through the bigger budget that is approved by the state. And so, we sit down, and we actually categorize and prioritize those requests that come to us from our own constituents.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay, so there's some collaboration on the individual products, projects. Excuse me,
Pamelya Herndon: There is collaboration.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay. Well, I feel the discussion starting to shift a bit to ideas of maybe transparency. Let's go ahead and add Marjorie Childress to our conversation this morning. She's the managing editor for New Mexico in depth and has been covering state government and recently wrote about transparency in the junior bill. Good morning, Marjorie.
Oh, I'm sorry, we don't have Marjorie yet. I apologize. Let's instead, bring in Shannon Kunkel, the executive director of the New Mexico Foundation for Open Government. Thanks for joining us this morning. Shannon, are you there?
Shannon Kunkel: Good morning. I'm here. Thank you so much for joining me and having me in the conversation.
Kaveh Mowahed: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I guess so we understand where you're coming from. Can you tell us a little bit about the work of NM FOG?
Shannon Kunkel: Yeah, so we are a transparency organization. We're solely dedicated to educating, advocating and sometimes litigating to defend the public's right to know.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay. Now, I'm wondering what FOG thinks about the ethics of creating spending bills like the junior bill, is there concern?
Shannon Kunkel: You know, I think that the way that it's been done in this special session is, you know, far superior to the way that it had been done in the general that was vetoed. It's important for the public to have an understanding of which lawmakers are really backing which of these projects, you know, even though the money is distributed among the legislators to use at their discretion, it's all taxpayer money. And so, we need that public scrutiny to ensure that we have good public policy when, you know, constituents and voters are engaged and know, hey, did my legislator vote for this project? Did they throw their support behind that project? You know, we're gonna get better, better outcomes overall. And we'll be able to see, you know, if there was a commendable project, folks can think their lawmakers for that. And if there was a project that they thought was wasteful, then they can hold them accountable for that as well.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay, I want to go ahead and bring in another voice right now, Dede Feldman, who served in the state senate for more than a decade before stepping down to write books about her experiences in Santa Fe. And she's done some work with common cause I believe, is that right, Ms. Feldman, thanks for joining us.
Dede Feldman: Yes, yes. Thank you, Kaveh, good morning.
Kaveh Mowahed: Good morning to you.
Dede Feldman: Common cause is another one of those organizations that's concerned about transparency and, and ethics in the legislature.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay, great. I'm wondering in your time working in and around the legislature, what kinds of transparency issues did you see?
Dede Feldman: Well, wasn't very transparent when I was there. The legislature done lot to introduce transparency into its proceedings, particularly since COVID. Where almost I think all committee hearings now are on the web and the public can testify before those committees. And last year after a long battle, the sponsors of capital outlay authorizations were… had to be forced to reveal who the sponsors were of those individual capital outlay. So, this time it's happened for the junior bill. And that's a great thing.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay, I see we have a caller on the line who is interested maybe in some of those special projects that could have been included in the junior bill. Mary Jo, from Edgewood, you're on Go ahead.
Caller Mary Jo: Hello?
Kaveh Mowahed: Hi!
Caller Mary Jo: I was just suggesting that the approach to supporting mentorship and apprenticeship with contractors, plumbers, electricians and contractors, you can set up a mentor program an apprentice program through MNO the maintenance and operations of all the schools in the state and support training people through there with MNO, staff that is already contract, you know, contractors so that they have an apprenticeship model, that people can work on learning how to prepare for the test, and have a two three year apprenticeship and then they can build we can build from the adults and then into the high schools for a whole system of next generation technical staff.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay, thank you. Thanks for calling Mary Jo. I feel like Dan might have a good sense of, you know, the breadth of the projects that are in that junior build. And you see, did you remember seeing any kind of support for the trades or apprenticeships?
Dan McKay: Um, yes, there is. I know there's money to community colleges for like welding, faculty, things like that. So yes, there is some money for that. I believe there, there are probably a number of state programs that would touch on the trades and trying to help people be able to obtain certifications and, you know, find work that way without necessarily needing a four year college degree that are outside of the junior bill, also, but yes, that certainly has been a priority of a lot of legislators is making sure there's a path for people to obtain that kind of that kind of trading for a trade.
Kaveh Mowahed: And representative Herndon, you mentioned CNM, I believe earlier, were the trades and apprenticeships, something that you had in mind when you were looking at those kinds of allocations?
Pamelya Herndon: Absolutely. That was one of the main focus that I was looking at in terms of raising the ability to have more people in the trades in our state. And not only that, but we were working in collaboration with the Department of Workforce solution, and other and members of the union to make sure that we are building up that that whole group of people.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay, I see we now have Marjorie Childress, the managing editor for New Mexico in depth on the phone with us. She's been covering transparency in the junior bill. Good morning, Marjorie, can you hear me this time? Can we hear you?
Marjorie Childress: Yes, thank you.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay. Great. Good morning. Now, you wrote about the junior bill a few times calling it a dark spending bill. I wonder if we're missing some of the nuance of the objections over the original bill.
Marjorie Childress: Yes, I call it a dark spinning bill because of the lack of transparency in it. It also, you know, the junior bill isn't like, so we had like a DeDe refer, you know, reference this kind of big fight over making the capital outlay bill more transparent. You know, the capital outlay goes through… it also goes like the big budget, it goes through a year round process. I mean, it's there's a level of transparency and what I would say are kind of guardrails built into the system of how that money gets spent. The junior bill, you know, no one really knows exactly how the junior bill gets put together other than lawmakers divide up the pot of money and then allocate it. So, it's, in some ways, it's unclear how just the public can actually be involved in that process of, you know, other than people going up there and working really closely with their own lawmakers, a lobbyist or an advocate, trying to get money for a particular thing. And so, it's, to me it's like, it's much less clear how, how there's oversight over the items and engineer bill. And I'm not saying that there aren't really great projects and engineer bill. I think there are really. And you know, there's so there is an argument. And I think it's a long standing argument around how through the capital outlay bill, and now the junior bill, also the junior bill. But as that argument kind of continues, which I think is going to continue, probably the transparency issues important, and I'm glad to see that they build transparency into the bill they just passed during the special session, but it really needs to be in statute that that, that that the junior bill, when it is, you know, done it just know, it's not done every year, but when it is done, it needs to be transparent.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay, I just want to point out, everyone in the room is nodding along with you right now. I'm going to go to Shannon Kunkel from the New Mexico foundation for open government. First, I'm just wondering if the fixes that are in this revised bill that just went through, are they satisfying for FOG?
Shannon Kunkel: Right. Well, I think Marjorie brought up a great point. So, they added this kind of provision at the end of the junior spending bill that they just passed in the special session this week. And that was great for this bill. But unfortunately, that's kind of a one off solution. And we really do need it in statute that anytime that they're going to have these spending bills, that we need to know which lawmakers are attributable to which projects.
Kaveh Mowahed: Now, I wonder representative Herndon, if there's been any talk or if you'd be interested in proposing the idea in the legislature of kind of putting this into code.
Pamelya Herndon: So, one of the things that happened during this conversation as we got ready for the special session, is that we'd never felt as though the of the money that we put into the junior bill was a secret. So that if any, if any person asked Pamelya, Representative Herndon, what did you put in the junior bill, I had no problem telling anyone. And I feel as though my colleagues felt the same way. And we had a great conversation about that. So, transparency has never been an issue for us, as long as I've been in the legislature. But of course, I've only been there since January, uh June 22. But it is refreshing to know that my colleagues felt very good about revealing how they were spending that money.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay, and so perhaps things have changed in recent times. Dede Feldman, you were there from I believe, what 97 To 2012ish, something like that. And you said you saw a lot of transparency issues in that time?
Dede Feldman: Well, I think that times have changed. And Pamelya is right, there is a lot less resistance to, to come and clean on who's sponsoring what. And even when I was there, there was reluctance to have the floor sessions webcast for fear that it might look bad for legislators if they were asleep in their seats during an all-night session, or if they were grandstanding and dominating. Dominating the time an acting political as if politics was that part of this process?
Kaveh Mowahed: Yeah, I'm thinking about discussing the rules of baseball for extended periods of time right now, for instance, which is something we saw not too long ago. Shannon, I saw you nodding along. Did you have something to add?
Shannon Kunkel: Yeah, you know, I really think that, in this in this new process, the legislators were really open, we found a special session to including their names along with these packages that they've put together, which is terrific. And it's also been great to see that lawmakers are, you know, embracing transparency across the board, and had been some of the lawmakers had been revealing these projects when they were not required to as well. That's true of the capital outlay system that you know, even back in the days when all of that information wasn't transparent. There were lawmakers who would readily say, hey, these are the projects that I supported. I just saw on Twitter this morning; Senator Steinborn had put out a tweet. You know, here are the projects that I included in the junior bill. And, you know, we'll know after the governor signs, potentially signs this junior bill, then we'll know after that all the lawmakers which projects they supported.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay. And Shannon, I guess the question then is should we leave it up to individual legislators to decide whether or not to disclose those details or should that be written into the process? I wonder if you have a sense of you know, what some legislators might say or feel about that? Is their support for codifying such a thing?
Shannon Kunkel: I think that there is broad support for that, you know, on that face, every legislator is going to say that, therefore that whether they really are in reality or not right, but I think it is important it needs to be in statute, and it needs to be, you know, a permanent a permanent fixture within the legislature.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay. And Pamela, what do you think I know you can't speak for your colleagues, but is such a thing in our future.
Pamelya Herndon: No, I don't think that my colleagues would object to that at all. I mean, every other aspect of the budget is revealed to the people of the state of New Mexico. So, you are welcome to learn about the junior bill. It is not a secret.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay. Now, I think I'd like to shift a little bit from transparency and economic ethics to the discussion of culture and behavior in the Roundhouse. Dede Feldman, is it still fair to characterize our Senate as a boy’s club to say that kind of culture lingers?
Dede Feldman: Well, there are two, two things you said there. And that is the idea of a boy’s club. And it's definitely not a boys club anymore, especially in the house, where the majority of members are women. But some of that atmosphere still remains from the good old days, so to speak, where there was a lot of carousing at the Bull Ring. There were deals made at the Rio chama and there were nighttime lobbyists and daytime lobbyists. And there was a lot that the public didn't see. Now, it's a little more transparent, but as we've seen from some of the allegations of sexual harassment, and alcohol use, things may not have changed that much.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay, and for those who may not know, the Bull Ring and Rio Chama are kind of nicer restaurants right there in downtown Santa Fe, near the Roundhouse. Pamelya, I wonder if you'd like to weigh in on that since you're a current lawmaker, have you felt or seen sexism in the round house?
Pamelya Herndon: I have not observed that. I can tell you that one of the great things that I saw occurring early on is the Speaker of the House invited me to come and sit and be the speaker of the house for that moment. So, a woman, a woman of color, and I haven't seen the description of activity that you are deciding, or you are describing right now.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay. Maybe it's a good time to let listeners who don't know, you know that, in fact, you are a woman of color, and it's 2022. Have you been welcomed warmly into the Senate? And I know, it's kind of ugly to ask, but do you think racism is alive in the New Mexico legislature?
Pamelya Herndon: Well, first, let me say I'm not in the Senate. I'm in the House.
Kaveh Mowahed: Sorry, I'm sorry, I apologize. Did I say Senate? Oops.
Pamelya Herndon: That's quite okay. And I feel very welcome in that house. My colleagues and I get together quite often on both sides of the isles. I've had conversations, so I feel comfortable where I am now. And I it sounds like things have changed quite a bit since Senator Dede Feldman was there and that's a good thing. And that is a sign of the progression in which our state is moving.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay. I'm gonna go ahead and let listeners know you are listening to Let's Talk New Mexico on 89.9 KUNM, I'm Kaveh Mowahed stay right there. We'll be back in just a minute.
(INTERMISSION)
Kaveh Mowahed: Welcome back to Let's Talk New Mexico on KUNM. We're talking about ethics among lawmakers in the state legislature. Give us a call 505-277-5866 to share your thoughts. Dede Feldman let's talk about other kinds of corruption. Milan Simonich of the Santa Fe New Mexican wrote earlier this week about a scheme that seems widespread in New Mexico where elected officials wait until the last minute to announce that they're vacating office, but their handpick successors already often have that knowledge. And they've been building a base and prepping to get onto ballots when others who might want to run get no advance notice. By the way, for listeners, we have a link to that column on our webpage at kunm.org. Dede will go to the rest of you in just a minute. But is this a new strategy or something you've seen in the 90s? Or since?
Dede Feldman: This is not a new strategy; this is not a new strategy at all. And I think there are quite a few legislators who, upon leaving have decided they want to anoint their successor, it's not possible in a democracy unless you engage in some artful dancing. So, part of that artful dancing, I think is timing, the announcements that you will not be running for reelection. Usually, though, the timing may even be as late as the day filing day. And so only one other person has known, but the system is designed so that you have to collect petition signatures in order to get on the ballot. So, it's not it's not absolute. I mean, somebody can't do this in complete secrecy, because candidates must get these signatures on a petition, which gives the public a clue to who's running in that district.
Kaveh Mowahed: Now, Shannon, is this the kind of thing that the foundation for open government has taken issue with or a stance of kind of the process to get onto ballot?
Shannon Kunkel: You know, it definitely is, I think that when the public doesn't know, who's going to be running, and you know, if there's potentially a powerful incumbent who's going to be running for reelection, then you're not going to get a lot of challengers. And it really does stifle competition in the election. And that's a big problem. In terms of the solution, though, you know, I think that we were we were actually talking, I was speaking with one of our board members about how, you know, perhaps we could look at saying, you know, you must announce that you're running for reelection, you know, 15 days after the session so that no one else can get, you know, this running, start for petition signatures and have kind of this backroom situation that we've got going on now. And, you know, would that be a potential solution? How can we hold folks accountable, that they're going to make these announcements in a manner that other people can make choices about running for office two?
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay. And Dan McKay from the Albuquerque journal, you've been covering government for quite a while, I wonder if this sort of strategy is specific to state government or the legislature? Or if you're also seeing it, or we're also seeing it in county government or city government? What do you think?
Dan McKay: Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know. I don't know, to what extent it's happened for local government offices. But as the others have pointed out, it is certainly a strange circumstance when you learned on filing day that, you know, a legislator has decided not to seek reelection. And there is, it just so happens, just one candidate seemed to have had the heads up and mange to file in that district. And it certainly does give, you know, people, people a leg up you see people who make it into the legislature without ever having faced an opponent.
Kaveh Mowahed: And that one candidate seems too often be closely related to the retiring candidate working in their office or an affiliate, it seems right.
Dan McKay: Yes, if say, a Republican steps down in a certain area, then, you know, you might see just one Republican candidate emerge in that district. There's also the issue of, you know, a lot of the districts are not necessarily well, probably most of the districts are not competitive for both parties. You know, they a lot of the action really is in the primary. Yeah, at least the decisive action and that is also affected.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay, I have a question for our listeners. And this is kind of maybe hinting to our conversation may go, would having a full time paid legislature help counter corruption or other unseemly behavior? Give us a call 505-277-5866 or email us at LetsTalk@kunm.org and tell us what you think. I see. We have a caller on the line Bill from Los Lunas. Hi, Bill.
Caller Bill: One, my issue on the legislation is ethics and the rule of law. How come we haven't heard anything from the Attorney General? On the issue of Steve, Steve Pearce and is six fake electors anywhere else in the new user or any place? Is there any investigation on the state level? Or is it put under the carpet?
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay, thank you, Bill. Thanks for calling. I did not reach out to the Attorney General's Office for this show. But I wonder if anyone in the room has any indication whether there's any kind of investigation? No, it seems like maybe, Dan, do you have any idea?
Dan McKay: Yeah, we have written about this issue at the Albuquerque journal. I think other outlets have also, the Attorney General did make a statement about it, suggesting that it was under review by federal prosecutors. It's a little difficult to say definitively because when an investigation is underway, they generally nobody talks about it. And certainly, the Feds won't. You know, I'm sure you've heard the phrase that they won't confirm or deny an investigation. And that is typically the response when we reach out. But certainly, it is an issue that a lot of people are interested in. I think there's a congressional inquiry in the US House. And it looks like there, there may be some sort of federal review of what happened underway, and certainly the Attorney General is aware of it.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay, I'd like to go back to Dede Feldman to ask about other kinds of corruption, we should be watching. What else have you seen or what should we be watching for?
Dede Feldman: Well, just to go back to the question that another caller mentioned, was a full time legislature, paid legislature be any different. I think we have in New Mexico what's called a citizens legislature, where folks keep their day jobs as well as serving in the legislature with no pay, and no staff, which presents its own problems. But a problem that may lead to corruption that often leads to corruption is conflict of interest. In that, quite often, legislators are casting votes on measures that touch their livelihood, whether they be insurance agents, or whether they be real estate agents, or lawyers. These are all issues that come up before the legislature, and in my experience, very rarely do legislators excuse themselves from voting, and in fact, are considered experts in those areas, by their colleagues. And that, along with the fact that, you know, only a certain group of people can afford to be legislators really characterizes the legislature, I think in in a certain way.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay, now, we happen to have a legislator, similar to what you just described, sitting in the room representative, Pamelya Herndon, who is a lawyer, and is on a committee in which she kind of has expertise. I wonder, Pamelya, are you what are you working beyond your work in the legislature right now? Do you have a regular job still?
Pamelya Herndon: I do. I run a nonprofit law center. And so, the two committees that I sit on, I am the vice chair of the taxation and revenue committee, and I also sit on environmental, environmental committee, environmental and natural resources. So, I don't really, I don't have a conflict with the with the work that I do on the committee's as it relates to my work on my nonprofit law center.
Kaveh Mowahed: And have you seen legislators recuse themselves when issues get a little too close to their work?
Pamelya Herndon: You know, in talking to my to the my colleagues, I have not seen them voting in areas that would cause a conflict. I see them not being present if there is going to be something that's going to be raised. But also want to point out that I don't see and I don't think people see this widespread corruption that it seems to be that we seem to be talking about because if you look at the years in which this legislature has been in existence, the good things that have come out of this legislature, the money that has been put back into helping low income people and housing and investing in the state. It's not widespread corruption, but it's good things that have been happening to lift up the state.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay. And Shannon Kunkel from the New Mexico foundation for open government. You have something out there.
Shannon Kunkel: Yeah, absolutely. I do. I think that most lawmakers are very well intended, and you know, want to serve of our state in our communities. I think one way that we could combat this, our organization does not take a stance on whether the legislature should be paid or unpaid. But one thing that we could do is have much better stronger disclosure laws around you know, financial information. So, you know, that the public can see firsthand if, you know, Representative Herndon works for, you know, her nonprofit firm or another representative work for, you know, a firm that that deals with different types of information. And then that way, they'll be able to judge for themselves if there is a conflict and hold lawmakers accountable in that way. And it would help to build some public trust by having that information.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay, I see we have a caller on the line. Bob from Albuquerque. Go ahead, Bob.
Caller Bob: Yeah, I want to raise a point and going back to your prior question, and its how legislators this variously pick their subsectors, and it happens in the Senate, and it happens in the house. And it happens in both parties. As in the legislator gets the longstanding legislator gets elected, does a session, then resigned, and then they're handpick successor gets appointed by the respective county. And then they run again, next time around. They're running again, as an incumbent. And I can name names. It's something that both sides use. And I think that should get the light of day.
Kaveh Mowahed: Yeah, that sounds pretty similar to that column from column from Milan Simonich. Earlier this month, which by the way, is linked on our website kunm.org. Let's see we're looking at the clock. We have about five minutes left. I think we would be ignoring the elephant in the room if we didn't include allegations of sexual harassment against Senator Ivey Soto and a conversation about ethics. Marjorie, I'm wondering if you can fill us in on what we know about those allegations?
Marjorie Childress: Sure, well, I call it a me too moment for the legislature. As you know, this letter came out in March by a group of organizations alleging numerous charges against Ivey Soto for sexual harassment and, and just you know, bullying or harassment. And that letter comes on the heels of another lobbyist who Marianna Inayat February who made charges of sexual harassment, and she and she also charged that he retaliates, retaliate against her by the length of voting rights bill and that he insisted she drink wine with him in his office, and, you know, charges of alcohol or, you know, descriptions of alcohol run through both of these letters that were given. And I do want to say, I think it's important to say that he you know, Ivey Soto has refuted the allegations, and he deserves to be heard. But they're serious allegations. You know, while we often talk of high powered lobbyists to wield a lot of influence, we have to acknowledge that lawmakers hold a lot of power over the success of bills that lobbyists have to see pass. So, there's a power dynamic at play here and serious questions of quid pro quo. And you know, honestly, the current and investigatory process for harassment charges is that a committee of lawmakers will look into such claims in private. Heather Ferguson of common cause an organization that works on government issues and is likely to have had quite a bit of contact with Ivey Soto given his role as chair of the Senate Rules Committee, told me that the current approach doesn't inspire confidence because friends and colleagues are the ones hearing the charges. And she wants to she wants to see the state's independent ethics commission handle complaints of harassment against lawmakers. You know, Ferguson, by the way, she's well known at the Roundhouse is one of the people making allegations against Ivey Soto. She said he called her and one of her colleagues’ lips and hips once when they were meeting with him. She said when she hires new staff at Common Cause, who will be lobbying, she actually tells them which lawmakers they should try not to be alone with. And she really emphasized bullying by some lawmakers. So really, you know, I really dwell on what she had to say, you know, because she's, you know, one of the people who made the allegation she's well known at the Roundhouse. And she really, you know, strongly call for lawmakers to create a zero tolerance environment at the at the legislature. And while they do have an anti-harassment policy that clearly states harassment won't be tolerated. It's, you know, it's kind of fuzzy how claims of harassment will be handled. You know, my colleague and I spent considerable time deciphering the process of their current policy which is on their website, and it does state in black and white that harassment won't be tolerated but how Now complaints are accepted from people and then investigated, it just becomes fuzzy.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay. Let's get into that process for investigating or disciplining legislatures legislate towards accused of wrongdoing. Before we dig in, I see we have one more caller Monet from Albuquerque. Go ahead.
Caller Monet: Hi, good morning. My question is actually just about that. I'm just wondering what we do to go about making it safer at the Roundhouse for lobbyists for other lawmakers, for citizens to not have to run into these types of things.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay, I think I want to start with Shannon Kunkel. From the foundation for Open Government on this. What is the process right now for investigation or just disciplining legislators?
Shannon Kunkel: Well, right now, the process is that the investigation happens internally within the legislature. And, you know, I don't have to go into detail as to why that's problematic. We would like to see a lot of openness and transparency to build public trust as we move forward with investigating any of these types of serious allegations. And our organization fought really hard to ensure that the state ethics Commission's process is very transparent and open. And so, it just makes good sense that it would go through the Ethics Commission.
Kaveh Mowahed: I'll go ahead and mention I did reach out to the Ethics Commission, and we had a good conversation, but they were not interested in coming on to a show to discuss anything that's in an ongoing investigation. Marjorie, I'm wondering what you can say about this kind of toxic culture at the Roundhouse, for instance, we've heard quite a lot about heavy alcohol use, Dede Feldman mentioned that earlier are in the in the conversation. What have you heard?
Marjorie Childress: Well, I don't want to give the impression that it's just a big party up there. I mean, I think the lawmakers are they work very hard. They're citizen lawmakers. Many of them probably don't drink at all. It's just it's amazing to watch people who aren't getting paid do the work that they do at the at the session. But there is a culture of drinking. I mean, anyone who's spent time at there, has witnessed it. I'm sure he's spent considerable time we've been up there through the whole session. And I think it probably does play into some of these questions around harassment and bullying that, you know, really need to be addressed.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay. Pamela Hernan, we only have about 30 seconds left. Would you like to weigh in? I wonder if you see alcohol is playing a significant part of the lawmaking process.
Pamelya Herndon: What I see is playing a significant role is the really hard work that the people who are there to do, so they actually do put in the time and the commitment, and it's not a big party.
Kaveh Mowahed: Okay, we've reached the end of the hour, thanks to everyone who called in or tweeted or emailed us and a big thank you to our guests Dan McKay, Pamelya Herndon, Shannon Kunkel, Marjorie Childress and Dede Feldman. KUNM will keep following state government as we work into interim committee meetings and the rest during the rest of this year and then into the next legislative session. Please keep sharing your thoughts with us on Twitter #LetsTalkNM, on Facebook, search for KUNM radio, or email us at LetsTalk@kunm.org. If you missed part of the show, we'll have the audio up on our website soon. You can also find it on Apple podcasts and Spotify. Our engineer is Marino Spencer Taylor Velazquez handled the phones today. Robert Maldonado live tweeted for us and Tu Bannermen produced the show. I'm Kaveh Mowahed for Let's Talk New Mexico on 89.9 KUNM.
RELATED:
- New Mexico’s Century-Old Constitution Plays Into the Hands of Oil and Gas, Capital and Main
- Legislature passes financial relief bill in special session, NM Political Report
- Advocacy groups seek Sen. Ivey-Soto’s resignation, Albuquerque Journal
- Legislature has few heavyweights, even less competition, Santa Fe New Mexican
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This public service is part of our Your New Mexico Government project, a collaboration between KUNM radio and New Mexico PBS. Support for public media provided by the Thornburg Foundation.
