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Last month, President Trump issued an executive order labeling the left-wing movement antifa a domestic terrorist organization. It's unclear what that means in the real world. There's no statute for domestic terrorism. But now the president is talking about designating antifa a foreign terrorist organization. That would have legal teeth and likely enormous repercussions. NPR justice correspondent Ryan Lucas reports.
RYAN LUCAS, BYLINE: Earlier this month, President Trump welcomed right-wing influencers to the White House for a roundtable about antifa, the far-left movement or ideology opposed to fascism. Some of the influencers gathered around the table urged the president to designate antifa as a foreign terrorist organization.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Would you like to see it done?
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Yes, Mr. President.
TRUMP: You think it would help?
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: They have foreign links...
TRUMP: I'd be glad to do it.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: ...All across western Europe.
TRUMP: I think it's the kind of thing I'd like to do if you'd like to. Does everybody agree? If you agree, I agree. Let's get it done. OK? Let's get it done. Marco, we'll take care of it.
LUCAS: The Marco Trump mentions there is Secretary of State Marco Rubio, because it's the State Department that has the legal authority to designate foreign terrorist groups. Jason Blazakis led the office at State that is responsible for those decisions during the Obama and first Trump administrations.
JASON BLAZAKIS: I do think it would be a highly dangerous step for the administration to pursue.
LUCAS: Blazakis says there are certain legal criteria to designate a group a foreign terrorist organization, including that it is indeed a cohesive organization. In the case of antifa, Blazakis says it is not a functioning group like ISIS or al-Qaida, which had clear leadership and a hierarchy. Instead, he and other experts say antifa isn't an organization at all. It's more of a movement of disparately linked people who share an ideology, which is that fascism is bad.
BLAZAKIS: I would really call on the State Department or the U.S. government to tell us who the leader of antifa is and where they are based.
LUCAS: The State Department also would have to demonstrate that antifa is engaged in terrorism and that it is a foreign group, not inherently domestic.
BLAZAKIS: If there is a domestic nexus that represents a significant domestic presence of that group, you wouldn't be able to proceed with a designation.
LUCAS: Still, Blazakis says the Trump administration could make a creative argument, or as he puts it, stretch the truth in order to designate antifa as a foreign terrorist organization. If it succeeds, the reverberations would be massive, says Thomas Brzozowski, the former counsel for domestic terrorism at the Justice Department.
THOMAS BRZOZOWSKI: It would have a legal impact. Then it would have a cascading effect across civil society, including social media organizations, civic organizations and everything in between.
LUCAS: The most immediate impact would be the ability for federal prosecutors to bring the criminal charge of material support to a designated terrorist organization. Material support is broadly defined and can mean something as small as a $10 gift card or a bottle of water. That charge, which carries a penalty of up to 20 years in prison, could be brought against anyone associated with what the administration deems to be antifa. Again, Brzozowski.
BRZOZOWSKI: When that foreign terrorist organization is so ill defined and nobody even knows what it is and it potentially includes all activity that can be painted as left wing or whatever term you like to hang on it, that becomes potentially catastrophically dangerous for anybody, for everybody.
LUCAS: That's just the criminal liability. Then there are what Brzozowski sees as the potential cascading effects. Social media companies, he says, could take steps to restrict any communication that could be seen as related to antifa if it were to be designated a foreign terrorist group. The companies also could build mechanisms to report such activities on their platforms to the government.
BRZOZOWSKI: That really, in today's environment obviously, is going to dictate in many respects what the broader public sees and what they don't see.
LUCAS: Universities, meanwhile, could cancel conferences that touch any topic that might conceivably relate to anti-fascism, he says, and faculty research could be curtailed. Then there are the insurance firms that insure universities, nonprofits, progressive think tanks and foundations.
BRZOZOWSKI: They're not going to insure these institutions if they touch anything where (inaudible) remotely concerns anti-fascism. And think about how broad that is. What does it even mean? It sounds crazy, Kafkaesque, but that's what this designation would bring into play.
LUCAS: All of these ripple effects, of course, depend on the Trump administration following through and designating antifa a foreign terrorist organization. And in Brzozowski's view, there's good reason to believe they will.
BRZOZOWSKI: The president himself, during a roundtable at the White House, turned to his senior advisors, whose job it is to designate these entities, and instructed them to do it on TV. So, yeah, I think they might do it. People aren't ready for it. People are not ready for it. If that goes through, I'm telling you - unbelievable.
LUCAS: Ryan Lucas, NPR News, Washington. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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