ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
Lawyers for Harvard and for the Trump administration made their arguments today in a federal court in Boston while supporters of Harvard rallied outside.
UNIDENTIFIED PEOPLE: (Chanting) Veritas. Veritas. Veritas.
SHAPIRO: At stake, more than $2 billion in federal research funds that the government says Harvard doesn't deserve. At today's hearing, Judge Allison Burroughs seemed to push back against that argument. Emily Piper-Vallillo from member station WBUR was in the courthouse today. Hi there.
EMILY PIPER-VALLILLO, BYLINE: Hi. Thanks for having me.
SHAPIRO: Sounds like it was crowded there. What was the scene?
PIPER-VALLILLO: Yeah, inside the courtroom was packed. Lines to get in formed an hour before the hearing even started. People had to be directed to an overflow room. Outside, Harvard alums and current students and professors, they all gathered to show their support for the university. Even workers at the university, like janitors and custodial staff, were there. I ran into Martin Hogan and his daughter Brianna, who is a Harvard alum, and they traveled all the way from Virginia to be in the courthouse today.
MARTIN HOGAN: The way we view it - if the administration, led by Trump, can take down Harvard, the oldest institution of higher learning, then anyone or any entity can be taken down.
PIPER-VALLILLO: So they said they made the trek all the way up here because they felt it was so important to witness the case firsthand.
SHAPIRO: And tell us about these arguments that so many people were so interested in.
PIPER-VALLILLO: Yeah. So Harvard's arguments focused on First Amendment rights, and that has stayed mostly the same the - this entire time. They say the federal government is retaliating against the university for not complying with its demands. For the Trump administration, there was only one lawyer in court, Michael Velchik. In court filings, the administration has said that these federal grants and contracts were canceled because Harvard violated civil rights law by allegedly fostering antisemitism on campus. But in court today, Velchik seemed to pivot, arguing that the government can cancel grants at any time if their priorities - for example, combating antisemitism - don't align.
Velchik primarily framed the issue as one about finances, and he told the judge that the government has the ability to simply give the research funding to another institution. He even singled out Howard University, a historically Black college in Washington, D.C. In court, he said, quote, "Harvard wants billions of dollars. That's the only reason we are here. They want the government to write a check." Velchik is himself a Harvard alum, and the judge, at one point, even pointed this out.
SHAPIRO: I take it the administration has not rerouted the $2 billion to Howard. Any indications of what the judge was thinking?
PIPER-VALLILLO: Well, Judge Allison Burroughs appeared to push back frequently on the administration's arguments. She did mention at one point that she is, in fact, Jewish, and so she understands the importance of combating antisemitism, she said. But she also questioned the relationship between cutting billions of dollars of federal funding for research. That includes cancer research and research for Alzheimer's. She questioned the relationship between that and protecting Jewish students. And at one point, she even called the government's arguments, quote, "mind-boggling." Following the hearing, President Trump took to social media, and he called Judge Burroughs, who is an Obama appointee, a, quote, "total disaster." "When she rules against us," Trump wrote, "we will immediately appeal and win."
SHAPIRO: And is an appeal what's likely to happen next?
PIPER-VALLILLO: Yeah, that's a great question. So both sides have asked for a summary judgment, which means Judge Burroughs will write an opinion based on today's hearing. So we're still waiting for that to come out. Harvard has asked for that ruling to come quickly. And in court today, the judge said she would work as fast as she could. But legal experts I've spoken with said an opinion could come after days or potentially even weeks. And of course, just as the president himself said, whoever loses will likely appeal, and this may eventually end up in the Supreme Court.
SHAPIRO: That is Emily Piper-Vallillo from member station WBUR in Boston. Thank you.
PIPER-VALLILLO: Thank you so much. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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