MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
For a closer look at how China is trying to put its stamp on world affairs, we're joined by Nicholas Burns. He was the U.S. ambassador to China during the Biden administration, among other top diplomatic posts in multiple administrations, and he now teaches international relations at Harvard University. Good morning. Thanks so much for joining us once again.
NICHOLAS BURNS: Good morning, Michel.
MARTIN: What's your sense of what this parade is all about?
BURNS: Well, it was quite a spectacle. It was very rich in symbolism, lots of messages being sent. I think first, the Chinese wanted to express to the world their expanding military power. That was center stage in this parade yesterday. Second was the embrace, kind of an alliance of autocrats, of dictators, with Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping embracing each other, with Kim Jong Un of North Korea and lots of other autocratic leaders in - present.
And I think third - and this is for Americans - Xi Jinping and Putin are trying to rewrite the history of the second world war, as Xi said two days ago that the main victors were China and the Soviet Union. Well, that's news to the United States because we were the savior of China - the United States, Franklin Delano Roosevelt - during the second world war. We were the air force of China against the Japanese troops, and we resupplied the Chinese military from India into Kunming in Yunnan Province in Western China. And that was a very dangerous operation for Americans. We suffered lots of losses. So they're doing this because they want to diminish the power of the United States today.
MARTIN: Interesting.
BURNS: So those messages were really profound.
MARTIN: You know, it's interesting 'cause people will remember a few months ago, President Trump staged his own military parade in Washington, D.C., officially to commemorate the 250th anniversary of the U.S. Army. So I think some people were wondering whether this in part was aimed at kind of countering that image. But what I hear you saying is it actually goes much deeper than that, about rewriting a much broader history than that of a few months ago.
BURNS: I think it does. You know, and I think President Trump was right yesterday to say, you need to recognize the fact that the United States fundamentally was part of the war on behalf of Nationalist China before the Communist victory in 1949. In fact, you know, it was Franklin Delano Roosevelt who insisted that China be part of the postwar international order as a member of the U.N. Security Council. Churchill didn't agree, but Roosevelt got his way. So the Chinese don't want to recognize this history...
MARTIN: So...
BURNS: ...The Communist Party of China today, that the United States actually saw China as a great power and wanted to perpetuate that. This is Nationalist China of Chiang Kai-shek. This is before the Communist Revolution of 1949.
MARTIN: So let's talk about the guest list - 26 heads of state in attendance, including Slovakia, a NATO member. What does this tell us about Beijing's influence in the current moment?
BURNS: Well, it was really quite remarkable. There wasn't a single high-level representative of a democratic country at that ceremony yesterday, at the parade yesterday. And so these are all leaders who are complete autocrats, or near autocrats in the case of the Slovak leader, in the case of the Hungarian leader, people like that. And I think, you know, the counterpoint for the United States is, look at the remarkable success of Japan and Germany, the two countries that attacked us in - during the second world war, which we fought. And yet now they're genuine democracies. They're strong U.S. allies. And I think that's the best American countermessage here - that we believe in democracy, that we believe in democratic alliances. And that's powerful.
MARTIN: So a new world order dominated by China - is that taking shape, though? And what might that look like, as briefly as you can?
BURNS: China, Russia and North Korea, maybe allied with Iran, want to counter the power of the United States. China certainly wants to overtake the U.S. in power in the Indo-Pacific, and we can't let that happen. So this is a - this was a - yesterday's spectacle really represents where international politics is today.
MARTIN: That is former U.S. ambassador to China Nicholas Burns. Ambassador Burns, thank you so much for joining us once again.
BURNS: Thanks so much.
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