A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
Russian officials say an attack against an oil refinery outside Moscow is one of Ukraine's biggest long-range strikes so far. Joining us now from Kyiv to discuss is NPR's Joanna Kakissis. Joanna, so what kind of damage did this cause?
JOANNA KAKISSIS, BYLINE: Well, A, at least four people were killed and at least a dozen wounded across Russia, including Moscow, according to local Russian officials. Now, Russia's Ministry of Defense said it had intercepted or destroyed more than 550 Ukrainian drones in more than a dozen regions - but some of the drones got through. Moscow's mayor said drones hit a checkpoint near the Moscow oil refinery, and they also hit residential buildings in Moscow suburbs.
MARTÍNEZ: OK. Now, how did Ukraine explain the attacks?
KAKISSIS: Well, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said they were, quote, "entirely justified." In his nightly video address, he said, Russians started this war, and now they are feeling it at home.
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PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY: (Speaking in Ukrainian).
KAKISSIS: He's saying this is a clear signal that one should not pick a fight with Ukraine or wage an unjust war of conquest. Now, Russia has been attacking Ukraine with drones and missiles nearly every night for years. Last week, a Russian missile destroyed an apartment building in Kyiv, killing 24 people, including three children, and this was part of a Russian attack that lasted for 48 hours, one of the biggest of the war, and Zelenskyy vowed to respond.
MARTÍNEZ: Could this Ukrainian strike have happened, say, a year ago?
KAKISSIS: So, A, not with the frequency we have been seeing in the last year. In the past, Ukraine has used weapons provided by the U.S. to strike deep inside Russia. Now Ukraine is consistently using weapons it makes itself, like drones, to do so. Now, these innovations have kept the war competitive for Ukraine, which is a much smaller country than Russia and has about a quarter of the population. Ukrainian soldiers often tell me that they see innovation as the only way to survive. Now, George Barros of the Institute for the Study of War in Washington told me that Ukraine does have a competitive edge in robotic warfare for now.
GEORGE BARROS: So creating new systems, creating innovative new tactics and pushing the technology forward - the Russians have a comparative advantage in scaling. Oftentimes, the Ukrainians will discover a cool new tactic or technology, start to implement it. The Russians on the other side of the line will then observe it, reverse engineer it, copy it and then scale it.
KAKISSIS: So it's a constant race, and now there are drones that use artificial intelligence.
MARTÍNEZ: But could this robotic warfare turn the tide for Ukraine?
KAKISSIS: Well, the Ukrainians are certainly hoping so. You know, defense tech innovation has helped them flip the script. Even Secretary of State Marco Rubio said recently that Ukraine has the strongest and most powerful military in Europe. Now, Barros of the Institute for the Study of War says the long-range strikes have degraded Russia's ability to export, transport and sell Russian oil.
BARROS: Is the war going to end because of the strike campaign? Certainly not. It is an important aspect of the overall Ukrainian strategy to defend itself and end the war on terms that favor Ukraine.
KAKISSIS: Now, peace talks essentially stalled because the U.S. is focused on the Iran war, and Zelenskyy often speaks bitterly that sanctions on Russia don't work either - that they're evaded or watered down. So he says that these long-range strikes are Ukraine's own idea of sanctions. He does see these strikes as one tool to force the Kremlin to stop its full-scale war on Ukraine, which has now lasted for more than four years.
MARTÍNEZ: That's NPR's Joanna Kakissis in Kyiv. Joanna, thanks.
KAKISSIS: You're welcome. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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