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Let's talk about the legacy of Larry Casuse

Photo by VibraCobra23 via www.flickr.com

Let’s Talk New Mexico 4/28 8am: On March 1,1973, UNM student and member of the Navajo Nation Larry Casuse kidnapped the Gallup Mayor Emmett Garcia and held him for several hours before the standoff ended in the death of the young activist. But what was the context for this tragic event? And how does the history of colonization and exploitation of Native Americans in the US factor into the conditions he was protesting against?

On the next Let’s Talk New Mexico, we’ll be discussing Larry Casuse’s legacy and the racist politics that led to his actions that day, as well as how they continue to impact members of the Navajo Nation and Native Americans across our state.

And we want to hear from you! How do you think we should remember controversial figures like Larry Casuse? And how should towns bordering Native American communities work to end anti-Native racism? Email us your thoughts at LetsTalk@KUNM.org, or call in live during the show.

Guests:

TRANSCRIPT

Ty Bannerman: Good morning and welcome to Let's Talk New Mexico. I'm your host Ty Bannerman. On March 1, 1973, UNM student and member of the Navajo Nation, Larry Casuse, kidnapped the mayor of Gallup for several hours before the standoff ended in the death of the young activist. But what was the context for this tragic event? And how does the history of colonization and exploitation of Native Americans in the US factor into the conditions that he was protesting against. On today's Let's Talk New Mexico, we will be discussing Larry Casuse’s legacy, and the racist politics that led to his actions that day, as well as how they continue to impact members of the Navajo Nation and Native Americans across our state. And we want to hear from you. How do you think we should remember controversial figures like Larry Casuse? And how should towns bordering Native American communities work to end anti-native racism? Call us at 505-277-5866. Email your thoughts to LetsTalk@KUNM.org. Or, or tweet to us using the #LetsTalkNM. I have two guests with me in the studio this morning. David Correia; he is the author of the new book “An Enemy Such as This: Larry Casuse and the Struggle for Native Liberation in One Family on Two Continents across Three Centuries”, as well as a professor of American Studies here at UNM and Dr. Jennifer Denetdale. She is the chair of the Navajo Nation Human Rights Commission, as well as chair of UNM 's American Studies Program and the author of “Reclaiming Diné History: The Legacies of Navajo Chief Manuelito. And Juanita.” Thank you both for coming in today.

David Correia: You're welcome.

Dr. Jennifer Denetdale: Good morning. Good day.

Ty Bannerman: So, David, let's start with you. So, who was Larry Casuse? And can you take us through what happened on March 1, 1973?

David Correia: Probably a lot of listeners who don't need an introduction, and they're probably mostly Navajo, who knows very well and know what happened on that day in March 1973. And don't really need any explanation for why he did what he did and why that was important. But I imagine there's a lot of listeners who don't or aren't familiar with Larry, or who maybe only heard his name once or twice, and maybe know only what you just said in the open. The point of reading this book, which I've spent years doing and with the help of my colleague, Jennifer and also Larry's family siblings, many of whom still live in the Gallup area, was to try to deepen the context, to explain that last day of his life, which was a really desperate day, and incredibly dramatic day. And really the least interesting thing about Larry Casuse. He was an incredibly thoughtful, intelligent young man. He was the president of the Kiva club, one of the longest student groups in the US, a Native student group at UNM. He was a member of a group called Indians against exploitation that for years had been trying to shut down the Gallup intertribal ceremonial in gallop which at the time was the largest tourist event in the state of New Mexico the most profitable event in Gallup completely run by the Chamber of Commerce, white businessmen, not at all native letter or are determined by Native people and, you know, just commodified the ceremonies and traditions of the Diné for tourism purposes. Larry had always had his attention specifically on Emmet Garcia, the mayor of Gallup, because Emmet Garcia was also the owner of the most profitable but also the most notorious bar and liquor store in the state of New Mexico, the Navajo Inn, and there's a chapter 10 of the book specifically around Gallup, which Larry and his, the other political organizers that he worked with, called the city of exploitation. You know, the entire economy of Gallup then and now is organized or is in its extractive economy, that that doesn't flourish despite of the suffering and misery of native people but entirely because of it. And, you know, the Navajo Inn was the, I think the perfect example of all that misery. Every winter, dozens of people would be found dead in the ditches and arroyos near and around the Navajo Inn which was 20 some miles north of Gallup, but right along the Navajo Nation border. People hit by cars, people beaten by teenagers who engaged white teenagers, who engaged in what is known as Indian rolling, murdering, brutally, particularly inebriated Diné men or women. The coroner almost routinely called it exposure deaths. This still happens it goes on; Larry had spent years trying to shut down the Navajo Inn. The very least even just move it from the road. Um, there was enormous attention in the 70s on the Navajo Inn. The New Yorker, The New Yorker, in fact, we're writing pieces about it. And how brutal that the whole scene around it was and the refusal of the city to do anything about it, to confront the problem, because of course, there wasn't a problem to the white economic elite in Gallup. It was the reason why they were profitable, and why they made money. And so, you know, in that desperate day, Larry and another young activist Robert Nakaidinae, kidnapped, they actually near where we're sitting right now, they kidnap another UNM student had gunpoint forced him to drive them to, to Gallup and where they kidnapped the mayor and held him hostage. Larry died in a in a in a, I hesitate to even call it a gunfight because it was mostly just the police firing tear gas and weapons into a sporting goods store where Robert and Larry had holed up.This, you know, over the years, people when they get defensive in Gallup, non-native people when they get defensive claim that Larry killed himself. He didn't. I think the book demonstrates and shows that the police killed Larry, after he, they had already wounded him. And after he was unconscious. And but what I tried to do in this book is demonstrate that there's a much more interesting deeper context to the actions Larry had that day and that any debate we might have about with Larry right to do this, or how should we remember him, that doesn't take into account the longer story of settler colonialism that Larry was confronting, is a completely a historical way to do that. And, and I don't think an honest way to confront it. Larry was not a violent kid. Larry was looking at an entire history and contemporary pattern of violence, that was killing his relatives and aunts, and had been doing that for generations. And he had no other way to confront it. And it was a desperate act, no doubt, and he paid for it with his life. And he's remembered as a warrior, and a leader, precisely because of that, that sacrifice. And, and so, the book tells a multigenerational story over hundreds of years to try to deepen the context within which Larry was, was struggling against. It's a story about, about war and occupation. And one family's effort to try to confront that torn apart by all the wars, colonial wars and occupations that that really define the last few 100 years for Native people in this country. A country that wouldn't exist without the genocidal campaigns against the Apache’s and the Navajos that that made possible the world that we live in today. And that's, that's what the story talks about, you know, his father, fought in the two bloodiest battles in World War Two that Americans fought in Europe, was a was a POW. His mom was Austrian, and was a child war bride actually brought back by his father after being an occupation soldier following the war in Austria. You know, the entire book is basically a story about a story of US war and occupation, and the human cost of that, and then the larger efforts to transform all that, that war and violence into a stable occupation that when the word we have to call that stable occupation is America. And that's the, that's the power structure that Larry was confronting. And if we don't, if we don't place it in that context, then we're not talking about what Larry was doing. And so, a lot of the criticisms over the years from nonnative folks in Gallup around Larry, are really an effort to try to reinforce the same sort of like myths about Native people to try to really like reproduce all the relations of domination that make a place like Gallup exist in the first place.

Ty Bannerman: Can you tell me a little bit more about these relations of domination like What do you mean by that?

David Correia: Well, Larry wasn’t born, he wasn’t born in the Navajo Nation. He was born in Santa Rita New Mexico, and Santa Rita doesn't exist anymore as a city on Earth. It was it was swallowed up by the copper mine down there. If you've ever driven down from Albuquerque to Silver City, you'll go to the members mountains and just before you get to Bayard, New Mexico, there's this enormous copper mine on the left. Which at the time, when Larry was born, was owned by a company called Kennecott. And his father was a miner, was like one of the copper miners. And the only reason why this copper mine exists is because of Mexico's genocidal war against the Apache in the 1820s, 30s and 40s, a war that the Mexican military couldn't win. So, it created what it called contratos de sangre or blood contracts, which were, which was an effort to entice American mercenaries into the region to kill Apache’s more efficiently than the military could. And it's only through that war against the Apache’s in the 1820s, 30s and 40s. That there is a Santa, Silver City or a Santa Rita and then later Harry's father works there only because the mining company owned Gamerco, the Gallup American coal company, and during World War Two when Spanish American or Spanish speaking, miners were brought to, were drafted, they recruited Navajos down there to pay them the least, work them the hardest, and force them to live in tents next to the precipitating plant, which was like camping next to a chemical fire. This is where Larry was born. And we, so we can't, we have to understand the sort of history of violent conquest to even understand the origins of his family. His dad was drafted, went to eventually went to World War Two, and fought in the Battle of the Hurtgen woods and the Battle of the Bulge was taken captive. You know, most stories, even stories and World War Two that focus on just everyday soldiers, just the grunts, taking the brunt of all that military violence ignore the contribution or the role of native soldiers who had again, the most dangerous assignments, actually were drafted at a higher rate than any other group in the US. More than 25,000 Native people served, 6000 native Navajo men were drafted. And, you know, as Larry's father Lewis used to say, there's this myth of the Navajo code talkers. Most Navajo men fought on the frontlines with guns and took the brunt of it. And there's a chapter that, that demonstrates that, you know, this, this war that we usually think of his has built around freedom and liberty was a war that was, in which they just threw Native men into that as cannon fodder against the Nazis. He was also, you know, came back to New Mexico had no options couldn't find work, was starving and to rejoin the army and become an occupation soldier in Austria, where he met the woman who would be Larry's mother, Lillian Hutzler. And that story is remarkable. She was three when the Nazis invaded her home eight when the Allied army was bombing her home at 10, when the Soviets and Americans in invaded Salzburg to end the war, and her entire life was turned upside down. And the chapter that that tells her story is another story of war and occupation. Upturning lives destroying lives and serving the interests of extending the occupation similar to the occupation of Santa Rita, for example. The chapter about Gallup is a chapter about the political economy of Gallup, but that's a war and an occupation. There's nothing that doesn't happen in Gallup that isn't an effort to commodify the economic lives of native people. My colleague, Jennifer here is the chair of the nomination and they've been investigating every aspect of that economy, including even the commodification of funerary practices for Native people. And you know, it's everything that trading post economy, the way alcohol is sold and regulated. It is a legal structure designed to produce the outcomes that we see as native immiseration that then get imagined as pathologies of native people rather than product, political and economic projects of conquest and occupation.

Ty Bannerman: Okay, well, we do need to go to a quick break. This is Let's Talk New Mexico on 89.9 KUNM. I'm Ty Bannerman; we are talking about the story of Larry Casuse and the context that he came from. If you remember this story, if you were alive when it was in the news, we'd love to hear from you to share those memories. You can call us at 505-277-5866 and we'll be back in a moment.

Ty Bannerman: Welcome back to Let's Talk New Mexico. I'm Ty Bannerman. Today we are focusing on the story of Larry Casuse: a young man and an activist who on March 1, 1973, took the mayor of Gallup, Emmett Garcia hostage and then after an hours long standoff died when police opened fire on the building where he stood. I'm joined by David Correia and Dr. Jennifer Denetdale. Now Dr. Dennett, Dale, you are a member of the Navajo Nation, and you were living there when this event occurred. Can you tell us about what it was like for you as a young woman when you heard about this incident?

Dr. Jennifer Denetdale: Okay, first, I want to thank my colleague, Dr. Correia for this very courageous book. I read the book and I wrote a review of it. And I have to say that, you know, I'm an avid reader. And this is a history that's touched me deeply. And the last, this week, David had a couple of book launches, one here on UNM campus. And the response from the Navajo people so far, has really been one of appreciation for bringing forth this collective memory that we have of Larry Casuse. So, like many of the Navajo people that I've talked to about this, I also express my appreciation. I'm from originally from Tohatchi, which is maybe 25 miles south of Gallup, is the closest border town to my chapter, Tohatchi. That's where I was spent most of my childhood, and we continue to, my family continued to live in Tohatchi. And the work that David, our colleagues, Melanie Jozy, and Nick Estes, have done spans more at least 10 years, if not more than 10 years on looking at border towns, including Gallup and Albuquerque is also a border town, as well. When people talk about borders, they don't think about the borders between designated tribal lands like the Navajo Nation, and the economies that exists outside of borders, of tribal nations, like the Navajo Nation, like Gallup who is come, exists because of Navajo people. And so, I was around 13 years old, when this happened in the 1973. For you know, some, some history, this was a time of native indigenous outcry in this country, and some people talk about it as red power rising. And so, people don't know about Larry and, and his actions. They know, they may know, larger, larger pictures of for example, the American Indian Movement and the demand for justice and indigenous liberation in this country and Larry was a part of the those movements in the 1970s. And so, in 1973, as I shared at David's book talk on this this last Monday, I was 13 years old, and I didn't know anything, you know, I just was aware that something was happening. But I do remember the outrage of the Navajo communities, particularly the young people, when the Gallup Independent publish a picture of Larry's body out on the sidewalk with the police standing over it like they had just bagged their trophy. The outrage, I remember at 13 years old, that outrage and the walkouts from of the young people from the high schools in the area. I went to Tohatchi high school at that time. Crownpoint, Shiprock Window Rock, you know. And so, I remember that I remember the outrage of Navajo people. And today, when I talk about, we do this work and as I do this work as a chair of the navigation, Human Rights Commission, I think this book gives me another way and I had to learn how to acquire the language to be able to name this violence, the Bordertown violence that David is talking about. It's a, it's a violence and experience and observation that my native and my Navajo people know very well.

Ty Bannerman: Now, at that time, did that change the way that you thought of how power structures exist in places like Gallup? Or was that something that you kind of knew innately at that time?

Dr. Jennifer Denetdale: I knew that, I knew about the injustices, because they're part of our family stories. I mean, one of the things that have come out in just the last two events that David has held is for Navajo people to come forth and talk about their concerns of a place like Gallup. And their struggles and their concerns, particularly with the ongoing rampant sale of alcohol in Gallup. Gallup’s population is very small. But the influx of Navajo people is the 1000s on the weekend, and it has more bars and liquor licenses than a town of that size should have and yet it's the foundation of that of that city. Alcohol sales have made people incredibly wealthy, non-Indians incredibly wealthy in Gallup, you know, and so it's, you know, I'm very familiar with the experience with quick gallop looks like you know.

Ty Bannerman: So, it's been almost 50 years at this point. Have things changed for the better in Gallup?

Dr. Jennifer Denetdale: I don't even think that's a legitimate question. You know, I'm not interested in looking at one point A to point B, as if there's ever been any kind of progress. That's a white liberal notion. You know, I think what David points out and what our work has pointed out is that this violence against indigenous people is called Indian hating. And it's called anti Indianism. Anti-Indian, anti-Indianism was coined by the Lakota scholar, Elizabeth Cook-Lynn, you know, and so it's the structures the very fabric of American society to just hate Indian people.

Ty Bannerman: I see. So what is the answer, then? Like, how can things be made better?

Dr. Jennifer Denetdale: You know, the conversations that we've had, and the work of my colleagues, particularly the young people, I think, is very important to the struggles that it was in I think David said in 2013, when he met the Casuse sisters, and it was here in Gallup, it was here in Albuquerque, actually, when the Kiva club, Larry was president of the Kiva Club in 1973. And it was, I think it's in 2013, when the Kiva Club held an event to remember, Larry, you know. And so, they're remembrance of him and their honoring of him, I think is really important in carrying on the work that Larry thought was really important. And the work was to call out and to refuse this constant racism and hatred of Indian people, you know, and so the work just continues and continues in the work of a local, they have the organization, The Red Nation, you know, continues to work and think about Larry in a very generative way.

Ty Bannerman: What lessons can we learn from a story like Larry's give us a call 505-277-5866 or email us; LetsTalk@KUNM.org and tell us your thought. Now, Dr. Denetdale, as I mentioned, among your other duties as UNM American Studies, chair, you are also the chair of the Navajo Nation Human Rights Commission. And I wonder if you can talk about how the work that you do with that organization relates to the legacy of Larry Casuse.

Dr. Jennifer Denetdale: When we met Larry and Melody Yazzie, and Nick Estes, and all three of us, we found a common interest in terms of create actually creating and bringing forth border town and border town violence as an area study, you know, and so we had that that common interest. I've been the chair I have I, this is my second term as chair of the Navajo Nation Human Rights Commission. And I think I've served I might be in my 11th year I can't, I'm not keeping count. But the Navajo Nation Human Rights Commission is the only kind of education that is part of a tribal nation within the United States and in the Commission was established when Clint John, an Navajo woman, Navajo man, excuse me, Navajo man in Farmington was shot and killed by Farmington police in 2006, you know, and so it's the only entity that takes it, it takes a Human Rights International Human Rights frame and puts it in conversation with the net philosophy, you know, and it addresses specifically Navajo citizens claims to it having experienced racism and discrimination in boundaries outside of the Navajo Nation, you know, and so we've done some really important work. It's hard work to do. We have excellent staff. Excellent, excellent, Executive Director. And there's just so many, there's just so many issues, we've been very successful. And we spent the last couple of years on voting rights, Navajo citizens voting rights, you know, and we now are we have we are in a lawsuit with San Juan County in New Mexico, we know and that's public so I can say that. We did we have been taking on auto predatory auto financing in Gallup, New Mexico. I mean, that doesn't even make it dent in the incredible amount of predatory kind kinds of businesses in Gallup by me, people. My own people will tell me about the payday loans and that is the first of the month, you'll see a line of elders standing in line to pay their, their what they owe the payday loans, and they will never pay that off. You know, and it's, it's, it's really hard to try to get the legislature to change that because it's profitable for the city of Gallup and other border towns around the Navajo Nation.

Ty Bannerman: Now, we are talking, we have been talking a lot about Gallup specifically, but as you mentioned, these are power structures and racist issues that you see throughout certainly to Mexico and probably further than that. Can you talk a little bit about how they manifest in places where you know in Gallup, it may be very visible with the with the alcohol problem and that kind of thing, but what about a place like Albuquerque or other parts of New Mexico?

Dr. Jennifer Denetdale: You know, I think I want to have David helped me with that question, because I not remembering the year that two Navajo men were brutally mutilated and tortured by Hispanic young men. I don't remember what year that was.

David Correia: Early 2015 I believe.

Dr. Jennifer Denetdale: Early 2015 and so there's you know; Albuquerque has this population of an majority of them are Navajo people who are on the streets here in Albuquerque. And that's a common experience. The, the term Indian rolling, was coined, and people apply it to Farmington, particularly what they call the chokecherry massacre. When white teenage boys men, murdered, mutilated, horrifically tortured Navajo men in Farmington in the 1970s around the same time that Larry Casuse you know, was addressing these issues with other Navajo people. So, Albuquerque has an has done that has not done anything that's productive and addressing this home homeless issue. Leaders in border towns like Farmington like Gallup and Albuquerque continue, declare that it's a Navajo Nation problem, you know, and Navajo leaders have not been very neither have Pueblo leaders been very good about addressing it either. You know. And so, we came, the Human Rights Commission came in to Albuquerque during that period, when the two Navajo men, rabid cowboy were murdered, and took public testimony. And we talked to people on the streets; Nick Estes and Melania Yazzie I wrote, one of the articles did a series of articles on these issues. You know, we went into, I was raised in and out of Gallup and we went to Gallup, and we talked to people. But the policies, laws and ordinances are put in place, just to try to make people go away. They're not in any way productive or meaningful, to change people's lives or to provide resources that might make a difference. So, David, do you remember that period when you were doing that work?

David Correia: Yeah, we spent a lot of time on the street, talking to unsheltered native people. And it was, I didn't think I talked to anybody that didn't have a similar story about cops, harassing them and telling them to go back to the reservation, even though they were born and raised in around Albuquerque. It's this idea that native people don't belong, of course, is a common trope of settler society. It's like you don't belong; their very presence is a challenge to and even progressive politics in a settler world which imagine which puts you know, the idea of progress at the heart of it, like things are getting better, we're trying our best. But of course, that effort happens within a context that requires native dispossession of land. And that's constant dispossession, that, that extends to every part of life: economic life, educational opportunities, employment opportunities, you know, debt is weaponized against Native people in every way imaginable. And the, you know, the example of alcohol I think, is a perfect one because it it's become such an easy way to pathologize native people who drink on the street, and no one bothers to really look at the structure of this. The legal and regulatory framework of drinking makes it impossible for Native people really to do anything but drink where it's illegal. It's illegal to have it on the on the reservation, that’s a long tradition, sort of a settler tradition of like equating alcohol with, with Indianness and restricting it. The you know, I mean, the territorial period in New Mexico, all the Indian agents were just obsessed with alcohol consumption, and it became a tactic of social control. And that happens today. So, like in Gallup, for example, you know, in the 70s, when Larry was operating, it was the largest drunk tank in the United States. They made more arrests per capita than anywhere else in the United States, almost entirely Navajo people. When Jennifer and the Navajo Nation Human Rights Commissioner in Albuquerque, so much of the testimony were people describing being arrested for alcohol, they'd never had a drink in their life. But it was just “Oh, you're Native and you're on the street, you must be drunk” hauling them to the drunk tank. We're talking about 20, 30,000 a year, these arrests in places like Gallup. You know, in the 70s, the penalty for driving drunk was less than possessing alcohol on the Navajo reservation. So, the reasonable way to bring alcohol back to the Navajo race, Navajo reservation was in the stomach. And that, of course, produced all these obvious results, the drunk driving accidents and the deaths related to alcohol. And then when they would folks would come into Gallup, most places wouldn't allow native people even enter their establishments sign saying no Indians allowed. And so, most of the drinking had to happen in like packaged liquor stores. And so, people were, the only legal place to drink if you were native in the 70s in Gallup was where it was illegal on the streets or in the alleys where they were most vulnerable to vigilantes or cops and in Gallup at the time, and today, the line between vigilantes and police is a very blurry one. And I don't, I don't say that to be provocative. I say that empirically, like the evidence of that we can find in the arrest records and in the legal cases against it. And it's all in this book, because we don't need to have debates about who's responsible and personal responsibility when we can actually see that we have systems created and designed specifically to produce these outcomes.

Ty Bannerman: Well, as Dr. Denetdale said, kind of the white liberal approach might be we changed this law, we change that law. But it seems perhaps that what you were saying is what we need is a major change in mindset and….

David Correia: Well, it's a structural change. I mean, that the demand for land back is not a metaphor. It's not a, it's not a like a polite request, may we believe as please have our land back. Anything short of that is a reformist approach that's designed just to sort of sustain a settler society based on that dispossession. And if it sounds naive, to you, to have someone say the only solution to these problems is to the return of native land. Your naivete is based on histories of great violence that have stolen these lands. And so, to deny land back is to defend that history of violence and to, to sustain a status quo that continues to produce the same outcomes that Larry fought against 50 years ago, is to defend a status quo that will continue to do that. There is no reforming a system designed to produce these produce these outcomes. And so, you know, Larry was very, that was one of the reasons why Larry is a hero as a warrior, because he was principled in this way. He understood there was no compromise on this issue. Even though he had tried, he understood that there are short term goals, and people, people are going to die tomorrow and so, what can I do today to help them from dying tomorrow? And the solution was, can we just move the bar back a little bit from the road. He understood that wasn't the solution, but at least it could save some lives and even that was naïve and, you know, you don't understand, Larry, that's not how things are done. And so, you know, he confronted a system that thwarted native demands at every level, diminish them, disputed every claim, marginalized every political struggle and, and so the outcome that that on March 1, 1973, when police killed Larry Casuse is understood by Native people in this country, as is the outcome, that we could look at any border town and see people like Larry, because this is he's not unusual. But he you know, he's, he's courageous, and for standing up against it and confronting it and by doing it, he forces us to look very honestly, or he ought to force us to look very honestly at that history, and then refuse to look away from what needs to be done to, to address it. And all we've done, as a settler society is look away from it, because all of our privileges are based on that dispossession and violence. And that's, that's his memory. That's the legacy. That's why it's contested, right? That's why his memory is contested in places like Gallup, because the only way to avoid having that very uncomfortable conversation is by dismissing Larry's complaints as legitimate in the first place. And they weren’t just as there's either a collective complaints and a collective experience of violence.

Ty Bannerman: Well, it is time for a quick break. You are listening to Let's Talk New Mexico and 89.9 KUNM, I'm Ty Bannerman, there's still time to weigh in on today's conversation. You can call us at 505-277-5866 or email LetsTalk@KUNM.org.

Ty Bannerman: Welcome back to Let's Talk New Mexico on KUNM. I'm Ty Bannerman. Today we are discussing the legacy of Larry Casuse. There is still time to call in 505-277-5866. I'm joined by Dr. David Correia, Dr. Jennifer Denetdale and now I am going to bring in another guest, Alicia Gallegos, who is a member of UNM’s Kiva Club. Good morning, Alicia.

Alicia Gallegos: Hello, good morning.

Ty Bannerman: Thank you so much for joining us today. So, the UNM Kiva club was founded in in 1952, making it UNM s oldest organization for Native American students, and one of the oldest in the United States. And as we mentioned, Larry Casuse was president of the organization. How is he… How is he viewed by members of the club today?

Alicia Gallegos: I would say you were definitely trying to still remember him and all that he has done for our native people through different ways, but definitely through education, because a lot of our members, including myself, didn't know who Larry could use was until we kind of came back in person this school year, and had a had a had a discussion about him where we had some older, or Kiva club alumni kind of educate us on like the history of Kiva club, how it's historically known, and how it's been active throughout these decades and then, of course, you can't talk about the history of Kiva club without talking about Larry Casuse. So, we were lucky to have some alumni with us to tell us the story

Ty Bannerman: Now, can you tell me what the Cuba Club does? What is it? What sort of issues does it address?

Alicia Gallegos: So, Kiva club, like you mentioned, is one of the oldest Native student org kind of here in the country. So, with that, we focus a lot on indigenous issues, and how we can educate not only our indigenous people, but you know, allies, or others who are in the community with us about the experiences we go through here, in urban areas, but also here, like on the reservation, and things like that. And so, we do a lot of work to, like not only educate, but also kind of be active in the community and bring real action to what we're talking about. So like, because in the past, you've heard about like Kiva club, being able to change you and then feel that had racist tropes on it. And now we're trying to we're still trying to figure out how, what actions can be taken to change, you know, some of the building names here on campus that really kind of idolize the conquistadores who genocided our people in New Mexico.

Ty Bannerman: And I should point out that we are broadcasting from the old Oñate building here on UNM campus. Although it is no longer written any sign outside. We have a call from Carmen in Santa Fe. Good morning, Carmen, what would you like to add to the conversation today?

Caller Carmen: Thank you. Good morning. I just wanted to say that I'm enjoying the presentation. I'm enjoying it in the sense of learning something about it, but not enjoying it in the sense that it's such a sad situation, that back then, and still today, Native people are still being treated unfairly. And well and so it's in Farmington also treats native people unfairly as well. And it's just sad that this happened in Gallup and that people were put in jail just because they were native. That's just that's, just it doesn't surprise me back then. And even today's the world is the way the treat it treats people of color. And I'm just glad that we're hearing it and talking about it and not erasing the history. So, thank you.

Ty Bannerman: Thank you so much for calling in Carmen. I wanted to go back to Alicia Gallegos, who is the Secretary of UNM Cuba club. And I want to know what was it, What was it that drew you to join the Cuba club when you when you came to UNM?

Alicia Gallegos: Yeah, that's a that's a good question. Because, you know, I started UNM in 2019. And so, by that time, I will say I had been just a little bit exposed to some of our issues that indigenous people face. My later high school years like I really started being aware of our conditions that we are living under in here in the US. Through the no dapple protests and then slowly with the end, they might they'll be our situation. So, once I kind of like got a grasp on that I knew like there was something that was kind of keeping, being kept from us as Native people in our education, something that was being silenced or erased so that we wouldn't know what we are living through, you know. And so, when I got to UNM, and I heard about Native American studies, I was like, oh, this is something I have to like, I need to take these courses, and then kind of do that. I learned about Kiva club. So, it was my freshman year, so I was just kind of trying to get used to the college life, and I didn't really know how to contact Kiva club. So, and then unfortunately, when the pandemic happened, and we were all at home, I was still kind of unsure if like Kiva Club was active or not. But when, when this school year rolls around, I saw them Tabling for our welcome back days. And I was like, oh, finally, I can join. And I signed up, and I started attending all the meetings. And then shortly after, like, maybe just the second meeting, I was like, oh, maybe I should try in run for an officer position, because I really want to commit myself to this type of work. So, I ran for vice president, unfortunately I didn't get it. But I was like, okay, next is being a secretary I can, I love taking notes. Yeah, so I really enjoyed getting to know our indigenous students here on campus who care about these issues and want to bring light to them. And not only that, but want to celebrate indigenous life, you know, there's so much more to us than our dramatic history, there's stuff to celebrate, we, we bring our culture and tradition here on campus, for example, today, we'll be having a luncheon. And we're going to be bringing our public dance group to come and, you know, bless the space and start us off in prayer. And, you know, that's, that's kind of something that you wouldn't see in other like, kind of Western institutions where, where that stuff can be ignored. You know, we need our native people to be here and advocate for those kinds of things.

Ty Bannerman: Can you tell me what is what is the importance of Larry Casuse story to you?

Alicia Gallegos: I have faith after reading Dr. Correia’s book, I learned so much more about what he stood for. And the context that he was coming from, the professors were talking about before, you know, this kind of experience is not too unique, you know, we kind of all face, we live the stuff that Larry was witnessing, when he was being, Native people being arrested by police, or seeing Native people suffer from alcoholism. Um, the kind of learning about how he approached that situation was really inspiring to me. And I really saw how like, how our ancestor’s courageous spirit can really continue on to our, these newer generations, you know, although that was, because 1973 that's, that's not too long ago. So, this really learning how he kind of he started out with trying to reach out to those Navajo Inn bar owners and saying, “Oh, this isn't right, we need to, you need to, like remove yourself, you need to, you need to, like you need to distance yourself from the Navajo people, because this is hurting our people, you know”, and he started out with that kind of approach. But like we've seen time and time again, his voice wasn't taken seriously. And he was told that, you know, what he was like you Oh, you can't do that, or, you know, things like that. So, the fact that he had to kind of go to that extreme extent, is really sad me, but at the same time, he can be remembered for how, what the things we have to go through to be heard. And so, I really want to bring that, that that spirit of resistance to Kiva club or with Kiva club, you know, because he did that with maybe one other person, I think and so, but we have a whole organization here on campus. So, it's like, how can we organize as a group of people so that we don't have to go to that extent again and experience that type of violence again.

Ty Bannerman: We have a call from Ed in Albuquerque. Good morning. Ed. What would you like to add to the conversation morning? What would you like to say today?

Caller Ed: I just want to say thank you to your panel. I personally am from Mobile, Alabama. I have a son who's half Navajo, we lost his mother to some of the it's things that you're talking about. But I want to say thank you, because the message that you're speaking is very enlightening to someone like me who doesn't know, the, the history out here in New Mexico and the struggle. And that point that the gentleman made about this system, and not trying to take the time to point the finger, but to look at the system and how the system is driving some of these issues. I never was, looked at it that way. And it was such an amazing point, especially coming from someone like myself. I come from a family where they went to segregated schools, and I'm the first in my family to not have to go through that. And I have a son that I'm trying to balance between my culture home and his culture out here. And I really want him to know, and understand, you know, the plight out here and respect it and be able to do what Larry did, you know, stand up and put up the good fight, and walk directly into that land. You know, those are not my words. But I just think that's amazing story. And it's disheartening that those things happen to all those Native men back in the 70s. That brutality, so but I just want to thank you guys for, you know, sharing that history and helping somebody like me, see, both sides of this history.

Ty Bannerman: And thanks so much for calling in Ed. And, David, did you want to respond?

David Correia: I don't know how to respond. That was beautiful.

Ty Bannerman: We also have a call from Veronica also in Albuquerque. Good morning, Veronica, would you like to share today?

Caller Veronica: I'm sorry, I can't quite hear you.

Ty Bannerman: Okay. What would you like to share today?

Caller Veronica: I just would like to share that I was a student at the same time, Larry, because this was at UNM. Just from my perspective, over all these many years, it seems to me knowing Larry, having known Larry at that time, it was kind of a lonely fight for him. It was lonely in the fact that as mentioned earlier, people didn't understand what he was objecting to people did not see the broad spectrum of the issues that he was trying to bring forth. And so, when I think of Larry curses, I think of him as a lonely warrior. The good that did come out after the event as I’ll call it was that there was a unification, there was a broader understanding, there was more of an acknowledgement from the New Mexico community, particularly the Native community. So, when I think of Larry Casuse, I think of him as a lonely warrior.

Ty Bannerman: Well, thank you so much for calling in Veronica. David, would you like to…

David Correia: Well, thank you for that, Veronica. I think that in a lot of ways, that's, that's a really, that's a that's true, you know, Larry, Larry, and Robert, what they did on March 1, 1973, they did alone. It was all of their friends and comrades and Indians against the expectation and Kiva club were unaware that they were doing it and the last chapter of the book tries to is a like a hour by hour account of the last two days of his life. Partly, it does demonstrate that sort of like he was really, he in some ways, he really lost a lot of faith in the in the kind of struggle they were waging collectively. But, you know, his death. You know, Jennifer was at the funeral. That was 1000s of people came out. You know, he felt alone in that moment. And it's part of the tragedy is that he really wasn't he had so many. He was part of a real a real movement and community that that had his back and it's part of the tragedy that that he saw the struggle ending that way for him, but I appreciate Veronica's comment.

Ty Bannerman: Doctor Denetdale?

Dr. Jennifer Denetdale: Just briefly, I want to say that this Larry story is also a part of UNM history, because Emmet Garcia was nominated as region of have a Board of Regents for the University of Mexico and Larry went to all means necessary to protest and refuse that and that led to March 1, 1973. But in the larger, larger picture, Larry was part of the tradition of indigenous resistance. We're not privy to that one. That's not part of the histories that we're told, you know, and so we need to remember read that he was part of that long, long history of indigenous resistance. It's a tradition.

David Correia: Before we go, I want to say, Jennifer and I are gonna be at The Red Nation office on Friday at 6 to 8PM. That's 1421 central avenue to talk about this book and about Larry Casuse Friday, 6 to 8PM 1421 Central Avenue and also in Gallup this Saturday downtown, at the downtown conference center, again, six o'clock at talking about the book and Larry Casuse with his family members. They'll be there on Friday in Albuquerque and then Saturday and Gallup and we will be at the flea market and Gallup. Also, from like 10AM to 2PM with the book and with The Red Nation, and with members of Larry's family.

Ty Bannerman: Okay, and that is all the time that we have today. Thanks to everyone who called in to share your thoughts. Thanks so much to our guests: Alicia Gallegos, David Correia, Dr. Jennifer Denetdale. If you miss part of the show, you can stream it online or subscribe to our podcast which you can find anywhere you find your favorite podcasts. Our engineers Marino Spencer, Daniel Montano handled the phones today, Kaveh Mowahed produced the show and Robert Maldonado live tweeted. I am Ty Bannerman, and this is Let's Talk New Mexico on 89.9 KUNM.

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Ty Bannerman has been writing about New Mexico for over a decade. He is the author of the history book Forgotten Albuquerque and his work has appeared in New Mexico Magazine, Atlas Obscura, Eater, and the American Literary Review. While at the Weekly Alibi, Albuquerque’s alternative newspaper, he served as food editor, features editor and managing editor. He co-hosts two podcasts: City on the Edge, which tells Albuquerque stories, and Anytown, USA, which virtually explores a different US county each week. He has two children and way too many dogs and chickens.